from Hacker News

Employee – CEO pay gap historically wide

by e12e on 7/23/25, 6:41 PM with 183 comments

  • by Jerry2 on 7/23/25, 7:57 PM

    I'm convinvinced that CEO-employee wage gap is due to this not-so-well known legal case from 1919: Dodge v. Ford Motor Co. [1]

    Basically, in 1919, Henry Ford sought to reinvest the Ford Motor Company’s profits into raising employee wages and expanding hiring, arguing that sharing success with workers would strengthen the economy and the company’s long-term prospects. However, minority shareholders John and Horace Dodge (who also ran their own competing auto company) sued Ford, claiming that his actions violated the fiduciary duty to maximize profits for shareholders.

    The Michigan Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Dodges, declaring that a corporation’s primary obligation was to serve the financial interests of its shareholders and not broader social goals or even the well-being of its employees. This decision established a legal precedent that continues to shape corporate law even today and reinforcing the doctrine of "shareholder primacy" and limiting the ability of companies to prioritize stakeholders (like workers or communities) over investor returns.

    It's been downhill for employees since.

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

  • by humblebeekeeper on 7/23/25, 7:30 PM

    Workers should exercise their power more, imo. We need more folks willing to put tools down, collectively, over stuff like:

    * RTO mandates that reduce productivity AND job satisfaction

    * High CEO pay outstripping worker pay

    * Loss of work autonomy and space (working without an assigned desk)

    * Layoffs out of the blue for successful teams

    * Weakening benefits

    * AI being wedged into whatever task you are working on

    I don't care if it's a union, I don't care if it's a guild, I don't care if it's just a group of folks deciding to take action together, whatever. It's time we (especially us in tech) to stop acting like "got mine" and start acting like "get ours".

  • by baron816 on 7/23/25, 8:11 PM

    Employee to CEO pay ratio is such a meaningless and distracting measure. Imagine there is a hedge fund that has only a handful of very highly paid employees. Compare that to a very large multi-national corporation that employs hundreds of thousands of low skilled laborers (something like Walmart). Let’s also imagine the CEOs of both companies have identical pay packages. All else being equal, the hedge fund that only employs a few people is much better for society than the company employing many many more people. I don’t think anyone here would agree with that.

    One thing we absolutely don’t want to do is disincentivize companies hiring people at the lowest end of the socioeconomic ladder. If employing those people lowers how much executives are allowed to get paid, what do you think is going to happen?

  • by bko on 7/23/25, 7:42 PM

    The question is often framed as "fairness" but the more interesting question, are the high salaries worth it? One person they cite as a high salary is the Starbucks CEO.

    > The report listed Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol as making 6,666 times more than the company’s typical worker, the largest pay gap in the S&P 500. (Niccol took over the company’s helm last September. The AFL-CIO annualized his compensation, listing it as nearly $98 million, compared to the typical Starbucks worker’s pay of less than $15,000.)

    But what happened after he was announced? The stock jumped nearly 25%, resulting in an increase market cap of 27.2 billion [0].

    So the $98m per year compensation is a great bargain for Starbucks and all their shareholders. This at least suggests that CEOs are very important (or investors are stupid?). But the stock price today is about the same level post announcement, so the value of his leadership mostly matched expectations for now.

    It would be great if the article had some of this context and nuance rather than a press release from the AFL-CIO.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2024/08/13/why-starb...

  • by vaneri2007 on 7/23/25, 7:24 PM

    Are we back to monarchy where the few makes the most and the rest is there to watch?
  • by Workaccount2 on 7/23/25, 7:35 PM

    The media would probably lose 20% of their revenue if people learned that CEO's with those monster pay packages get paid out of shareholders pockets, whereas workers get paid out of company pockets.

    To put it plainly - not paying the CEO wouldn't free up any meaningful amount of more money to pay the workers.

  • by Kapura on 7/23/25, 7:53 PM

    damn, if only it were possible to pass laws that make rewarding individuals increasingly unattractive as the individual rewards increased. some sort of progressive taxation scheme, perhaps. if only such a thing could exist!
  • by shkkmo on 7/23/25, 7:48 PM

    The edited headline "Employee – CEO pay gap historically wide" here is wrong. The Employee - CEO gap is higher (ratio 295) than last year (ratio 268) but lower than in 2021 (ratio 324).

    If you're gonna make up a headline, don't make up one that is factually false.

  • by mc32 on 7/23/25, 7:19 PM

    And it’s not only a problem at for profit organizations but also a problem for so-called NGOs and other non-profits —who you’d think would be different…

    Screw it, tax them progressively for every multiplier above the average Jack and Jill’s pay —with adjustments for company size and whatnot.

  • by reliabilityguy on 7/23/25, 7:36 PM

    I suspect that lack of strong antitrust contributed greatly to what we have now.
  • by tschellenbach on 7/23/25, 7:42 PM

    AI is giving people endless freedom to start their own companies if they feel their skills are undervalued elsewhere. Very positive change for the world I think.
  • by msgodel on 7/24/25, 3:14 PM

    It's weird to see complaints about this here when it's almost as easy to apply for a CEO position as an IC one on this site.
  • by thrance on 7/23/25, 7:51 PM

    Boss makes a dollar, I make the third of a cent.
  • by cyanydeez on 7/23/25, 7:54 PM

    Wonder if they included the acquahires ditching the dead weight
  • by rimbo789 on 7/23/25, 8:24 PM

    Every CEO I’ve worked for could have been replaced with a bot that randomly spat out “yes” or “no” to questions and the company would have either been improved or stayed the same.
  • by charlie0 on 7/23/25, 8:04 PM

    It's time to become a CEO.
  • by fredfoobar on 7/23/25, 7:32 PM

    Looks like a cash grab before the AI meltdown
  • by SirMaster on 7/23/25, 9:23 PM

    I mean there are only so many CEO positions available... Wouldn't we expect that the competition for so few top ranking positions would come with high pay?
  • by declan_roberts on 7/23/25, 8:32 PM

    Both blue collar and white collar wages are being dramatically depressed via legal and illegal immigration. I have no idea why this became a right-wing talking point. This is why big business is very pro immigration.

    Your employer can at any time replace you with an H1b who MUST work at the company to even stay in the country.

    As soon as we can reform immigration we are going to see much higher software salaries.

  • by red-iron-pine on 7/24/25, 3:56 PM

    we have officially arrived at the cyberpunk dystopia
  • by SideQuark on 7/23/25, 8:41 PM

    There are 211,230 CEOs with mean annual wage $258,900 [1]. Being the mean surely gives that the median is much lower.

    There are 120,053,000 age workers with median weekly income of $1,159 = $60,258 annual income [2] (and this includes part time, people in college, semi-retired, many people who have had high incomes in the past or will in the future).

    A story about a 4.3x of CEO to worker pay, which is the actual stats of CEO to worker, doesn't generate enough outrage.

    Comparing the top 500 (ish) of them to all workers is simply bad analysis designed to rile up people.

    Surely people here would call out the dishonesty of comparing the top 500 wage worker salaries (many millions/year each) vs all the CEOs (258k) as dishonest. It's funny seeing how many people eat this equally dishonest comparison up as indicative of all CEOs and companies...

    As to all the theories as to this or that law being some culprit, or some evil intentions, note the pay of the top performers in nearly every category, from musician, to athlete, to lawyer, to top 500 CEO, to even employee, have seen pretty much the same growth over the same time. It's nearly impossible all these are driven by something as specific as a labor law, a union change, a stock market or money format change. It's almost a certainty these are all driven by an excess of accrued capital in the US (and other markets) allowing those paying these incomes to pay for what they see as talent, whether is a huge rise in middle class disposable income, a larger share of US money available for retirement accounts, etc. Many years ago chasing down this exact set of ideas revealed a ton of econ papers reaching the same conclusions....

    In short, high (someone else) pay rarely is money taken from the poor, and in more cases the poor and middle get higher wages as the top get higher wages simply by econ effects like the Baumol effect. This is the effect that as some jobs pay more, it attracts more people, so for society to get older jobs done, they must now also pay more, even if productivity in the latter jobs have not increased. It's why the lowest labor in the US pays many, many fold over what you'd get for the same output in most of the world.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect

    Just some thoughts....

    [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes111011.htm [2] https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.htm

  • by jstummbillig on 7/23/25, 8:24 PM

    The pay gap is a such a sad metric. I understand where it's coming from (a mix of envy and sense of unfairness) but I think it's just not the right number to look at if we aim to increase prosperity. Much more interesting, if we cared about the prosperity of people, is the average inflation adjusted compensation of a companies employees, and that is something we could measure CEOs by.