from Hacker News

The product of the railways is the timetable

by NaOH on 10/6/25, 4:02 PM with 88 comments

  • by dvdkon on 10/10/25, 7:55 AM

    This is an interesting conclusion to a problem other countries are facing as well. The Czech Republic fully divided its railway infrastructure (under SŽ) and national train operator (ČD) sooner than most of the EU. SŽ being incompetent is a favourite topic of railway fans here, but most everyone agrees that this kind of split was for the best, at least for long-distance trains.

    Pretty soon after the railways were opened to non-state operators, quality of long-distance train routes improved, both by new trains by private operators and increased competition forcing ČD to improve. On regional railways, where the state pays for train operations, costs have gone down thanks to competition. It seems to me like this model can work well, you just need an infrastructure operator that's receptive to its "customers" (which SŽ often isn't), or a political structure that can force them to listen.

  • by dajonker on 10/10/25, 6:56 AM

    That graphic from the Swiss Railways is absolutely wonderful

    https://sma-partner.com/storage/app/media/Dokumente/Netzgraf...

  • by globular-toast on 10/10/25, 7:05 AM

    This is the way I like to think about problems. Essentially you start backwards from the problem and (hopefully) arrive at a solution. If at some point in the depths of abstraction you lose touch or forget what that original problem was, you've already failed.

    Building infrastructure for the sake of infrastructure is a good example of being completely out of touch. The problem was there weren't enough trains at the right time to the right places. The bridge builders clearly weren't thinking about that.

    In my work this often happens because of the XY problem. People ask for X, but in fact they need Y and X is just their proposed solution. This would be like people asking for a new train from Cambridge to London, but in fact they are really going to Oxford and were only using London to connect.

    There are also assumptions that even the most pedantic people don't mention all the time. If people ask for more comfortable seats on trains, they implicitly also mean at the right time. They don't mean a comfortable seat at 2:00 in the morning that takes 3x as long to get there.

    I've often thought some kind of daily meditation to remind yourself of what the problems are is useful. There are the "bedrock" problems (like the train timetable) that never change, and there is the specific problem you are trying to solve right now (like connecting Cambridge to Oxford). I think it's worth thinking about it every day lest you lose sight and build the bridge nobody needed.

  • by the_gipsy on 10/10/25, 7:33 AM

    Contrived conclusion: Given a good frequency, passengers can completely ignore schedules.
  • by walthamstow on 10/10/25, 8:17 AM

    I'm surprised the author doesn't mention that centralised time itself was a product of the railway. Prior to that, every town had its own time, London and Bristol were 20 mins apart. In order to have a central timetable, there had to be a central time.
  • by hshdhdhehd on 10/10/25, 7:27 AM

    He missed something. The train means you dont have to park. That is often a big advantage. Parking is expensive and stressful if there are not many spots. In a city the train system can probably get you closer to where you want to be. Especially if you dont want to pay top $ for parking.

    Parking in cities is also stressful with finding tbe entry on the correct one where you booked. And you miss the entry? Yep that is a one way street. Go round the block? No right turn? Satnav says 15 minutes to get back there again.

  • by emersion on 10/10/25, 10:12 AM

    There are open-source projects trying to replace older closed-source software used to produce these timetables:

    - Netzgrafik-Editor: https://github.com/OpenRailAssociation/netzgrafik-editor-fro...

    - OSRD: https://osrd.fr/en/

    (Disclaimer: I'm working on OSRD.)

  • by NoNameHaveI on 10/10/25, 3:29 PM

    "The product of the railways is the successful arrival of passengers at their chosen destination." Clearly, this was not written in the USA. With a few exceptions (NE corridor, Wolverine route), Amtrak is forced to share rails with host freight (goods) railroads who could give a hoot about the expedient delivery of passengers. The Big 4 (BNSF, UP, CSX, NS) would rather just let their freight have priority and pay a minimal fine. Sadly, this will continue to be the case where Amtrak does not have their own right of way (NE Corridor, Wolverine).
  • by jsdalton on 10/10/25, 1:50 PM

    I simply don’t agree with the conclusion though I appreciate the approach to thinking about products.

    I recently chose to take the train vs driving and the factors behind that decision were:

    * Time, yes. Train was approximately the same but an actually a bit slower.

    * Cost. Train was slightly cheaper when looking at the true cost of driving. Also significantly cheaper than flying.

    * Experience. This is entirely overlooked in the timetable centric approach. Train is simply the most pleasant way to travel long distances (maybe ferry is competitive there). I was able to move around and get work done and enjoy the view. If the train company had swapped my train for a bus I would NOT have been a satisfied customer.

    * City center to city center (vs airport to airport). Had the train company said “we swapped the arrival location to the airport but technically we still got you to the city” I would NOT have been a happy customer.

    The “trains as timetables” hypothesis would imply that the train could meet my needs via something other than rail travel and would definitely lose me as a customer.

    On the other hand, improvements such as better wifi service (it was terrible and not sure why cell service is also poor on a train) or a route that was more scenic but did not impact my arrival time significantly would positively affect my likelihood of choosing train.

    So the better lesson is know your customer needs and know their specific jobs to be done and center your hypothesis around this.

  • by MomsAVoxell on 10/10/25, 9:10 AM

    The product of the railways is the successful arrival of passengers at their chosen destination.

    The fact that this isn't obvious, and that instead the means by which that product is delivered is considered more important than the actual arrival of passengers, is very telling.

    This is a common issue in the technology world - too often, the actual end result is overlooked, for the sake of the means by which that product is produced. Your special organisational tricks mean nothing if the customer is left at the station, standing in the rain, hundreds of kilometres from home.

    The timetable doesn't get anyone home. The trains do. The timetable just describes the intent - it is a requirement which describes a service, not a product. The train is required to show up at that time, and by publishing it the train company is establishing agreement with its customers in an open and fair manner.

    A product is something which is produced, and the word 'product' describes, after the fact, that which was produced. A service is an act which is performed in support of producing something. Timetables are a service which are subservient to the fact of actually producing the desired result. I do not go to the train station to look at the services being promised delivery; I go to engage in the act of using that service, to gain my desired product: my ass at home, making a cuppa.

    Disclaimer: if you've taken a train in any one of 38 different countries around the world, chances are your safety has been being predicted by SIL4-level online tests I've written for that purpose ..

  • by Juliate on 10/10/25, 9:17 AM

    It's an interesting take, and you may as well map it to industrial projects, architecture, software to see it from a different perspective.

    The timetable is the specs. The product is what your customers experience.

    The specs (loose or... very specific) is definitely a major product step. But in that it is a mean to deliver the service/experience in the end. Without the implementation details (that do not live in the spec), you get often unsatisfied people everywhere.

  • by nitwit005 on 10/10/25, 5:32 PM

    I can make some guesses as to where the author lives, purely from their confidence that trains will keep to their schedule.

    People will still show up for trains that fail to meet their schedules. They just have to have a high enough frequency that you aren't sitting there for hours, or for there to simply be no other option.

  • by maelito on 10/10/25, 9:48 AM

    In codeberg.org/cartes/serveur I'm building a stack to visualise transit plans using node-GTFS and setup and update a motis instance for transit calculations.

    Open source transit plans are under-developped. Almost everything still needs to be invented.

  • by jacknews on 10/10/25, 6:39 AM

    It's one product, sure.

    Arguably more important is standard time.

    Before the railways towns ran on local-noon time, so the railways and their timetables required time to be synchronized across regions.

  • by ekjhgkejhgk on 10/10/25, 5:56 PM

    Is anyone else getting bored with these "insights" which are flippant to the point of being rdiculous? Many things are necessary to have a "product", not just a timetable. Anyone can scribble a time table.

    I swear this is an industry. "I'm so insightful, don't forget to like and subscribe"

  • by metalman on 10/11/25, 2:17 PM

    the title, and the author, are uninformed railways are the most cost effective and resiliant means of terrestrial transportation. Rail networks have continued to function under the worst conditions of war and economic hardship. Railways main asset durring better times are there rights of way, which, when you look into it, exist in a special category of "no, No, NO, you cant move it or build on it, block it, or anything else" no matter how dissused it looks. which is to say that railways exist outside of time, and are in essence a physical manifestation of pragmatism, realism, whatever you want to call it, in these easy times, when people flirt with the "whens" and "whys", "wouldn't it be nices's" rather then songs extolling the great strength and worth of railroad ,trains, and the excitement that comes from people standing up under adversity and thriving get you some train songs in your feed, see what I mean